Fleet access to real-time position tracking

17 replies [Last post]

Tue, 2010-02-16 23:45

fishmeal

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Joined: 08/17/2009

Every boat will have a small tracking and position reporting device on board.

This is great for the folks at home tracking the race.

But: Does it give an unfair advantage to the boats with onboard webb access?

I think it does.

The usual approach is to delay the posting of real-time tracking info to the web by some number of hours. But I'm not so sure this is enough. For examaple, if you are trying to cover a competitor, and if you have good web access, you can find out by late afternoon or evening that they jibed at lunchtime. If you don't have web access, you won't know 'till roll call the next morning. It's a big tactical advantage to have that info as soon as it hits the web.

My druthers would be to delay tracking info to the web for a full 24 hours, so the roll call positions are always the most current possitions available to the fleet. The RC, of course, will still have access to the real-time positions for an emergency. ETAs based on real-time positions would also be posted without any delay, for the benefit of family meeting boats at the finish.

A 24 hour lag would not be popular with people on shore, but this race is run for the racers, not for the spectators, and I think it's a better race if there's no tactical advantage to the boats who can afford broadband access.

"Call me Fishmeal"

Mon, 2010-07-12 09:00

velista

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Joined: 03/01/2009

real time tracking?

In the 2008 edition, the satellite transponder data was posted on the internet with an 8 hour delay, I believe, so as to avoid giving a tactical advantage to boats in the competition with web access. Has this changed?

Thu, 2010-07-08 18:02

Unknown Sailor

Where is Queen Melody?

She dropped off, shows no report today and has no official start time. Has he had an electronics failure? I'd be very iterested in knowing facts related to Ping Li and his two kids onboard.
Thanks! Brenda Jewell
Sierra Point Yacht Club

Sat, 2010-07-10 04:30

Administrator

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Joined: 11/25/2006

Queen Melody

QM unfortunately did not meet the qualifications for the race and is therefore not a participant.

Ping reports that he is in good spirits with plenty of food and fuel sailing probably 60 miles south of the main fleet. He is considering what his ultimate destination will be, as the light winds are as much of a challenge to his sail as to the rest.

Because he is not in the race, we took him off the tracker, as it was causing confusion for the viewers. It's nice to know that his friends care about him.

In my day, things weren't so new!

Fri, 2010-06-25 12:04

bluechart

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Joined: 12/16/2007

Position Reports

My understanding (from the 2008 Skippers Meeting) was that after the 1st start on Monday July 5th, no competitor or crew should access the position reports, even if they do not start until days later, as this would be outside aid.

And yes, obviously it is on the honor system, but if true, competitors and their crews should be reminded of the "rule".

I have heard others say, that it is acceptable to view the position reports until "their" start.....

Coyote

Mon, 2010-02-22 16:18

nick.salvador

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Joined: 01/17/2010

Delay in publishing position reports

Our sport, much like golf, has always been self policing. The position reports really allow the family and friends of the teams to follow and participate vicariously in the event. Unless there is evidence that a participant has used the online tracking data during the PacCup, may I respectfully suggest that this is an inconvenient solution to a problem that doesn't exist? I'd just be sure to cover Outside Assistance thoroughly at the skipper's meeting and be done with it.

Sat, 2010-02-20 18:08

dshkipin

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Joined: 10/21/2009

Winlink 2000

Winlink 2000 is a free mail service to those with an Amateur Radio license (http://www.winlink.org) I dont know how it compares to SailMail. Has anyone got input on that?

Dmitry and Nikki

Mon, 2010-02-22 15:39

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Joined: 11/25/2006

Free as in Free Beer

Not sure what that means, but I have used both with great success. Winlink2k and SailMail are the same technology. The difference is that SailMail is professionally administered and operated, whereas WinLink is run by Hams -- amateur radio operators.

If you are expecting telephone-like service, you will be sad. If you find the challenge of making it work to be one more interesting thing about being ONE THOUSAND MILES off the grid, which is as far (1070 miles) as you can get from land anywhere on the planet, you might enjoy it.

Back to the topic, Winlink stations may be variable in quality, strength and hours because, well, just because. I have a certain fondness for such measures.... But it is your choice.

In my day, things weren't so new!

Mon, 2010-03-01 13:44

cdoutre

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Joined: 12/29/2009

SailMail is vastly superior to WinLink2000

As a ham, I also have access to the WinLink system and in 2008 I tried to use it in order to get more air time; the SailMail system limits you to about 10 minutes a day. In the entire voyage, I was only able to connect to one WinLink station, and that one station was not always accessible. I spent a lot (a lot!) of time trying to get through. On the other hand, if you are willing to wait until a SailMail node is not busy, I found that you will almost always connect succssfully. I have asked around to find out why the WinLink system is so unreliable compared to SailMail and have had no success finding an answer. Perhaps it is because SailMail is run by cruisers, and is not free, so there is more of a focus on uptime. I'd sure like to hear otherwise; getting an extra 30 minutes a day using WinLink would be very nice.

Chris Doutre, crew
s/v Cirrus
kg6sko

Wed, 2010-02-17 15:37

Valis

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Joined: 04/24/2007

I would hope that the honor

I would hope that the honor system would be sufficient. On VALIS we had web access if we wanted it, and we chose to stay within the rules -- both regarding position tracking and weather data. For that matter, with our satphone we could have asked someone shoreside for the positions, but didn't. In fact, I had to remind my wife not to tell me this stuff (she never did).

I understand wanting to not make it easier to cheat, but where do we draw the line? My friends and family back on land are a big part of my race, and I would rather that they enjoy the experience of near-real-time tracking.

Wed, 2010-02-17 15:36

#10

garrettcoonrod

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Joined: 07/17/2009

web access

What is each boat going to have on-board for tracking?

If you want to get deep I would say that having web access is outside help. Also paying for sailmail seems like paying for a commercial service. That being said I would not advicate against people having these options. Racing is not an inexpesive sport and the competitors can push the rules or even cheat if they wish. I wouldn't call you fishmeal but why open a can of worms?

Wed, 2010-02-17 21:42

#11

fishmeal

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Joined: 08/17/2009

Sailmail is a free service

Sailmail is a free service (thanks to Jim Corenman and Stan Honey for dreaming it up and getting it running). Check out www.sailmail.com to set up an account. Saildocs.com is a related service that sends the GRIB (gridded binary) wind and weather files via low bandwidth email/sailmail. It's all free, legal to use for the race, and much better than traditional weatherfax.

The hardware that adds sailmail capability to your SSB or Iridium phone is not free, but not particularly expensive in the scheme of things.

Web access is a different story, requiring a much wider data pipe, but I believe it will be allowed for the Pacific Cup. The playing field would be more level without web access, but it's a very difficult line to draw.

Then there are phone calls, which have become both common and private with widespread use of satphones and other systems. And everyone you are likely to talk to on shore can see the website and instantly know more about your tactical situation than you do. It's way too easy for a well-meaning friend on shore to say "hey, that other boat is going south" without realizing they're giving up info you're not supposed to know 'till roll call. You can't un-hear it once it's said.

So I still think it's much cleaner to delay the posting of positions to the webb 'till a day later.

"Call me Fishmeal"

Fri, 2010-02-19 05:37

#12

garrettcoonrod

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Joined: 07/17/2009

sailmail is not free

Sailmail is $250 per year.

Sun, 2011-05-01 05:29

#13

Freedom

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Joined: 01/18/2011

Yes, the competition should

Yes, the competition should always be healthy. It is right that the web access is good for the spectators and they are really eager to know who is ahead and some of them want to know that their near and dear ones on the boat are really safe. But I agree that the race is for racers and not spectators so the broadband thing should be totally out for the boats.
_______________________________________
800 numbers

www.angieslist.com

Fri, 2010-02-19 08:05

#14

fishmeal

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Joined: 08/17/2009

Well it used to be free

Sailmail had been made available to Pac Cup racers for free in past years. Anyone know what the status is this time around?

"Call me Fishmeal"

Fri, 2010-02-19 08:49

#15

Administrator

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Joined: 11/25/2006

Really? Free?

I had not encountered free sailMail. I had always thought it well worth the $250 fee, however. Be aware that it is a shared and limited resource... you get 10 minutes per day. This is generally adequate for basic comms, but if you are trying to upload a video, maybe you need another solution.

In my day, things weren't so new!

Fri, 2010-02-19 23:57

#16

fishmeal

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Joined: 08/17/2009

Sailmail is not free

I checked with the sailmail administrator. Sailmail was free to the fleet in 1998, but not since then. Clearly I am living in the past.

In any case it's been considered legal in every Pac Cup, despite the required fee, and it is very much worth it unless you have a really robust alternative for low-bandwidth email.

"Call me Fishmeal"

Sat, 2010-02-20 01:01

#17

fishmeal

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Joined: 08/17/2009

But Saildocs is still free

Actually, even though the email link via sailmail costs $250/year, the weather info from saildocs is free, therefore race-legal without any special exceptions. You are allowed to buy an expensive connection - it's the weather data that has to be available to everyone.

You can start playing with this now, for free.

Download and install the "viewfax" grib viewer program here:

http://www.siriuscyber.net/wxfax/

Then email this text string to query@saildocs.com:

send gfs:20N,40N,116W,160W|1,1|0,6,12,18,24,30,36

and saildocs will return an email with an attachment that the viewfax program can open.

"Call me Fishmeal"

Fleet access to real-time position tracking

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